Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, Kaladin and some of his men began Shardblade training, and Kaladin used profoundly dodgy rationale to justify his decisions. This week, we go back in time to a festival in Jah Keved, attended by the Davar family.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 45: Middlefest
Point of View: Li’l Shallan
Setting: Jah Keved
Symbology: Inverse Pattern, Vedeledev, Joker
IN WHICH Shallan observes a chicken, and is overwhelmed by a fair with five hundred people in the same place; as she accompanies her father, she reflects on her life as it is these days; Lord Davar is patronized by someone of his own rank, which is naturally infuriating; Shallan slips away at an implicit dismissal, and sets off on the business of helping her family in the ways she can: she smuggles a note from Eylita to Balat to set up a tryst, thus extricating him from the axehound fights with which he has an unhealthy fascination; when she returns to her father, she finds him speaking with a stranger, who reacts oddly to her presence; the “messenger” slips something into his own drink; Lord Davar declares that Helaran is officially disinherited, and changes the remaining brothers’ titles; he asks Shallan to speak to Wikim, who is refusing to leave the carriage; she does so, presenting him with a distraction in the form of math problems; as she leaves in despair, she comes across the stranger again; he tosses a lot of cryptic questions and comments around, but then turns her to look at Wikim, who is actually smiling as he works on the maths she left him; the stranger tells a story, and gently guides Shallan into some inadvertent Lightweaving.
Quote of the Week
“I assumed he’d sent you here. I mean, that coming to us was your primary purpose.”
“Turns out that it was. Tell me, young one. Do spren speak to you?”
The lights going out, life drained from them.
Twisted symbols the eye should not see.
Her mother’s soul in a box.
“I . . .” she said. “No. Why would a spren speak to me?”
“No voices?” the man said, leaning forward. “Do spheres go dark when you are near?”
“I’m sorry,” Shallan said, “but I should be getting back to my father. He will be missing me.”
“Your father is slowly destroying your family,” the messenger said. “Your brother was right on that count. He was wrong about everything else.”
Oh, the memories, Shallan. Let them come! But of course, she doesn’t, and can’t. She’s not ready to fully remember these things. But it does tell us clearly that before her mother died, Shallan was definitely using Stormlight and seeing the Cryptics.
Commentary
Once again, we get a glimpse of the abject brokenness of the Davar family, and I don’t know who I feel most sorry for. Lin, who is so subject to fits of anger, though Shallan can “remember a time when she’d rarely, if ever, seen him angry.” Balat, who “hadn’t acquired this fascination with death until Mother had left them.” Wikim, who has given in to the despair and is actively preparing for his own suicide. Jushu, who in his twin’s estimation, “will destroy himself. It’s only a matter of time.” Malise, who “spends one night in two weeping.” Shallan, who is trying so hard to fix them, to bring them back from the brink of their various self-destructive activities, recognizing that they’re all trying, but they’re all unraveling anyway.
All in all, I identify with Shallan the most, because I know that feeling of wanting to fix things, wanting to help people who really don’t want to be helped, unable to just shrug it off and let them do their own thing because that thing is clearly leading them down to despair and destruction.
That said, I think it’s still Lin I feel the most sorry for. The first time (we know about) that he tried to protect his beloved daughter, he was forcibly prevented and had to watch as she protected herself against all odds, and in so doing condemned herself. But she was only condemned if anyone knew, and so he protected her a different way: not with his body or his knife, but with his silence and at the cost of his reputation, his family, and his sanity. What moment was it that opened him to Odium’s influence?
For all the misery of the family, though, in this chapter there are glimpses of hope. Balat leaves the axehound fights for the sake of a walk with Eylita, Lin has the self-awareness to ask Shallan to speak to Wikim on his behalf rather than risking what he might do in his current mental state, and Wikim develops an interest in Shallan’s gift of math problems despite himself. And Shallan… Shallan actually does a Lightweaving – probably her first in two and a half years.
For the reader, though not necessarily for Shallan, the most encouraging part is her conversation with Hoid. Typically cryptic, but gentle and encouraging. And hopeful.
“Two blind men waited at the end of an era, contemplating beauty.”
Stormwatch
Three and a half years ago, when Shallan was about 14.1 years old. This is two and a half years after the first flashback to “Red Carpet, Once White.”
Sprenspotting
The first mention of a spren is a windspren who darts through a merchant’s enclosure, making objects stick together. Is this a common trait of windspren, or does it mean there’s a “young” honorspren hanging around?
We learn here, not a reason, but a common behavior of spren: when people are in a crowd, even though emotions are high, spren are rare. Why would that be? I have a vague recollection that there’s a WoB on this somewhere, but I don’t remember it. Anyone?
Finally, there’s Hoid’s question to Shallan (see QOTW): do spren speak to you? But she won’t quite remember. *sigh*
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
Chickens! If you haven’t already, you really need to reread the first page or so of this chapter. It’s funny to see a parakeet (or something similar to one, anyway) described from the perspective of someone who’s never seen a bird before, up close and personal. This one has even been taught to speak a little, which makes Shallan call it a Voidbringer – an animal that speaks. (I wonder if there’s some mythology in which those two are inextricably linked.)
We have an assortment of local flora: jella trees, breechtrees (which apparently produce cotton) and shum, whatever that is. Also fauna: along with the axehounds in the fights, there’s a mink slinking around in the shadows. But… now I wonder. Shallan is surprised to see the mink, expecting all those in the area to have been trapped by now. And it’s not long after this that she finds Hoid up in the tree. Was he Lightweaving himself into an illusion of a mink? Tricky business, that.
Ars Arcanum: It’s fascinating to watch Hoid gently but persistently maneuver Shallan into Lightweaving, once he realizes what she is. Too polite (or too innocent) to just walk away from him, she has to get annoyed with his stories and questions before she unintentionally reaches beyond her mental blocks to create the Illusion for herself of her ideal Beauty.
Haven’t We Met Somewhere Before?
Oh, hello, Wit. Carrying a metals vial around everywhere now, are we? I wonder… if I’m right that he was disguised as the mink, was that a Yolen-style Lightweaving, or a Rosharan Lightweaving, or some kind of Allomantic power I don’t remember? Because I can’t think of anything he does in this chapter that indicates Allomancy, other than drinking the metals.
Heraldic Symbolism
Vedeledev and the Joker are both obvious, though there may be deeper meanings I’ve missed. (Could it be?!) Shallan is trying her hardest to heal her family by any means available, and Hoid is all over it. The chapter title is unambiguous, to say the least.
Just Sayin’
A couple of goodies this week, aside from the chickens. The parakeet (or parrot) calls itself “Jek son of none” which was, IIRC, the original name of Szeth. There’s a new term here for the time just opposite the Weeping: it’s called “the midpeace” and is apparently another time when there are no highstorms. My favorite, though was Shallan’s thought on freedom: as valuable as an emerald broam, and as rare as a larkin. Larkin FTW!!
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when Kaladin goes out with the guys and attends a Meeting. Grr.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. With Sasquan 2015 only seven weeks away, it’s not too late to become a member – or even join the staff! There are rumors of especially good Con Suite and Staff Den provisioning; possibly even bacon chocolate chip cookies. Look for Wetlander at Registration – she’d really like to meet you there.
Question 33 here has the WoB on why spren usually don’t show up when there are large groups around
My thought was always that he was using allomancy to find Shallan. Maybe he was drinking/burning Bronze. I had assumed this would let him detect someone using stormlight in some form.
Not sure if this is correct or even possible, but that was my first thought when reading the chapter.
Alice, i thought it was preety clear that Hoid was using emotional alomancy on Shallan…
I believe that´s the reason he drinks the metal flakes, not posing as a mink, seeing that there is no allomantic power that would allow him to do that (maybe feruchemical identity could, but for that he wouldn´t need to swallow the metal)
Re: Hoid’s Allomancy, I’m pretty sure he was Soothing Shallan’s father. Also, he used bronze to detect Shallan’s Investiture.
Unless I’m totally making stuff up, which is always a distinct possibility.
@@@@@PallonianFire, checking for investiture with Bronze seems like it could be possible, it is an interesting thought. Someone would have to be ingesting stormlight to be detectable, I assume, so I interpreted his metals drinking as also soothing her father and, as @@@@@Raysen suggests, pushing Shallan herself into a comfortable place to take in the stormlight and prove her abilities.
How Hoid followed a trail/just know that the Davar family had a potential stormlighter is another mystery though.
@5 He knows Helaran
I had the same thought as @2, that Hoid was burning bronze. We only learn about Seekers’ abilities to find other allomancers in the Mistborn series, but perhaps on other worlds they can sense any form of Investiture?
@6: But Helaran is not a surgebinder… He was involved with the false Skybreakers and he carried dead Shards. As far as we know, he never had a spren: if he did, he would not have been able to fight with his dead-Blade.
Alice, I too loved the descripton of the “chicken” with it’s tiny bit of shell above the nose ;)
As for Windspren binding things: no it doesn’t need to be a Honorspren. IIRC Windspren can do this. In WoK Kaladin comments on the Windspren doing pranks, thats why he isn’t unduly astonished about Syl, before she starts speaking to him: (WoK, chapter 2):
Yes this is Syl, but if other Windspren wouldn’t do this, his reaction should have been different.
@@@@@8. Gepeto “Helaran is not a surgebinder… He was involved with the false Skybreakers”
What do you mean by “false Skybreakers”? I’ve been trying to figure out all the various secret organizations and who belongs to which. Are you refering to the group Naln currently leads, or is their some other group of pseudo-Skybreakers?
@2, @3, @@.-@, @5, @7 – I always figured he was Rioting/Soothing the others as needed with zinc and brass. I never considered bronze, but it’s an interesting possibility. And if burning bronze can be used in this way, what effect would the other Allomantic metals have? Could aluminum be used to defeat surgebindings? Or duraluminum used to enhance them? It’s clear that some people can use more than one of the different magic systems found in the Cosmere, but it’ll be interesting to learn when and how they interact. And on that subject, considering that very few people (of which I am not one) know what a Yolen style lightweaving is, would anyone care to elaborate?
How does Hoid know instantly that Shallan can Surgebind when he firsts spots her during his meeting with Lin? As I recall, Shallan was not surgebinding/investituring. I did not read the Mistborn series. Please forgive me if the answer is obvious for somebody who read that series. Also, Hoid’s question to Shallan (if spren speak to Shallan) would indicate that a spren was around Shallan at that moment. How did Hoid see the spren? Is that something that most people can see? Or is it knowledge that Hoid has gained from other world or realms? Another question. From what we have seen so far in SA (admittedly, a small sample), the only spren who speak are the more advanced (sentient?) spren: those types of spren who a KR can bind via the Nahel bond. Does this imply that in the past, Hoid has spent some time in Shadesmar.
When Hoid comments that Helaran was right when he said that his father was slowly destroying House Davar but wrong about everything else, I wonder what else Helaran said. I bet one of the things that he said was that Shallan had no way of escaping the hell that became House Davar. Upon seeing Shallan (and knowing that she had had the potential to form a Nahel bond with a spren), Hoid must have realized that Shallan, at least, had better things ahead of her.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
In addition to what I said @9 re wind and honorspren
it could of course be that only the honrspren can bind and the humans misjudge it because they mix with their cousins the windspren. But since Syl once says that only she defied the stormfather and crossed …, i somehow thought that all other honorspren still are in the cognitive realm.
@12 In the mistborn series when you are burning Bronze you can sense a sort of pulsation from people who are actively burning another metal. People who are very proficient in its use can detect variances in the pulse/wavelength and distinguish between different metals being burned.
On this world, we have no way of knowing what signature a surgebinder would give off (if anything). Based on mistborn, Hoid probably wouldn’t have sensed anything from Shalan if she was not holding any stormlight. Maybe she subconsciously keeps a trace amount of stormlight running through her. Or maybe I was completely off base with my guess. But that is the impression I always got.
From the recent AMA on Reddit, “Bronze is capable of sensing other types of investiture.” [link]
From Chapter 2 of WoK, “Windspren were devious spirits … as Kaladin tried to toss his wooden bowl aside, he found that it stuck to his fingers … Windspren often played pranks like that.”
ETA: I wish that Preview Comment would also refresh the existing comment list so I could more easily see if someone had already posted what I’m about to post …
WoB and the context suggests it’s either brass or zinc that Hoid takes here I think: while it’s true Hoid could be taking bronze to confirm his suspicions about Shallan having a potential Nahel bond, he checks her later on in a much clearer way. Plus, why bother ingesting the bronze right then and there, instead of waiting for a bit? With brass or zinc, he’s taking it then for immediate usage.
Of course, Hoid is a tricksome individual so you can really give him any motivation, but brass/zinc make more sense than bronze right here, IMO.
As to whether or not that’s a windspren or a young honorspren – early in TWoK Kaladin does think that Syl’s pranks are just typical for windspren, but later he does reflect on how her pranks are always specifically caused by sticking things together. I always figured that windspren pull similar pranks, but if it’s specifically sticking stuff together, it’s a free honorspren who is just taken as a windspren because of how close they are in appearance/demeanor. It’s like, if poltergeists were considered everyday, obviously if something gets messed with then that is what you would assume did it, even if it happened to be a different kind of invisible force (or in this case small living concept).
crapaflapnasti @1 – Thank you! I knew it was out there and had something to do with a surfeit, but I couldn’t remember it. Also, your username is a pain to type. ;)
@many – I knew there had to be something I was missing, but – true confessions – I was dead tired while writing this, and there were connections that just kept slipping away from me. We don’t know for sure if he had mixed metals, but it’s a fair bet. Soothing – both on Lin and on Shallan – would be a good guess, even better than detecting investiture. He seems to have picked up on “something different” about Shallan before he drank the powders, so I don’t think Allomancy had much to do with reading her. Also, soothing makes sense of Lin’s request that Shallan talk to Wikim in his place – that self-awareness could be a result of Soothing the emotions that normally override it.
Werechull @10 – Oh, that’s a question I’m longing to have answered! It’s pretty clear that Helaran isn’t a real Skybreaker, but… who is this group? Is he serving real Skybreakers? Is he serving Nalan directly? Does Nalan have a group of non-Surgebinders that he calls Skybreakers?
Nick31 @11 – “And on that subject, considering that very few people (of which I am not one) know what a Yolen style lightweaving is, would anyone care to elaborate?” Don’t look at me! I know there is such a thing, and that Lightweaving is roughly the same thing across the Cosmere, but I don’t know what the specifics of the Yolen thing are. I’d love to read Dragonsteel, but I don’t get to Utah very often.
I think this is one chapter that really helped change my perspective on Shallan. Here she is, horribly broken herself, and she’s still doing everything she can to help her family. In WoK, I still enjoyed her sense of humour, but I found myself wanting to get back to Kaladin, where the action was. Her character is very much fleshed out over the course of this book, and it gives me a whole new level of respect for her.
Plus, Hoid’s interested in her, which is always a good sign.
Also, shout-out to one of Kaladin’s first chapters, when he destroys Tvlakv’s map and throws the pieces at him, saying “Happy Middlefest” – I got to this chapter title, my first thought was “So that’s what a ‘Middlefest’ is!”
Edit to add (instead of double posting):
Nick31@@@@@ 11: Aluminum and duralumin are internal metals, affecting a Mistborn’s internal metals. To affect someone else’s metals, you’d need to use chromium or nicrosil, respectively. I suspect (but am not certain) that these would also affect surgebinding. We’ll likely be waiting a long time to see it happen in-text, unfortunately.
As far as Yolen style Lightweaving: I can’t find the exact quote, but Wit/Hoid comments on Lightweaving on Roshar, saying that it’s “the closest to the original Yolish variant”. I’m guessing that’s from the end of WoR, where Wit is waiting for Jasnah to re-appear. That’s about all that’s written in the actual text of the books, that I know of. You can find various segments/drafts of Liar of Partinel, set on Yolen, on Brandon’s website, but as with any other unpublished work, it’s not yet canon. My suspicion is that Hoid’s storytelling to Siri in Warbreaker and to Kaladin in Way of Kings also uses this technique, but I don’t believe that’s been confirmed yet.
About the Yolen lightweaving, it’s mentioned in the Ars Arcanum, not by Hoid (who AFAIK didn’t write it).
Helaran is mentioned by Mraize at the end of WoR to have gone looking for the Skybreakers, without more details, do we do not know if this is Nale’s group or another.
And hi! First time delurking, having read all cosmere works and all posts on these rereads so fat. Brandon Sanderson is my favorite author right now, can’t wait for the next Wax and Wayne, or Stormlight 3!
@19 – Welcome to the re-read!
I knew I had seen that quote somewhere, thanks for correcting me on where it’s found.
We know from WoB that Hoid didn’t write the Ars Arcana. Spoilers for unreleased content follow in white text: It was actually written by Khriss, a character from the unpublished novel White Sand. He’s never come straight out and said it, but he has said that Nazh works for Khriss, and that the annotation on the map of Elendel (in Alloy of Law) was relevant to the question of who wrote the Ars Arcana (see question 7 on this page). From other things he’s said on the topic, this indicates that Khriss is a member of the Seventeenth Shard.
And I’ve now just spent half an hour of my free time doing research on a fictional universe, and I don’t even regret it. I love the Cosmere!
We know Helaran seek the Skybreakers, but we also know he was not a surbebinder as evidenced by his Shardblade in the fight against Kaladin. It did have a gem at the pommel and it behave quite as all dead-Blade we have seen.
As to whether Nale’s Skybreakers are real Radiants or not, we do not seem to know enough to decipher the truth. However, Szeth was invited to join the group at the end of WoR (or thus was my understanding) and as far as we know, Szeth does not have a spren. Helaran was presumably part of this group and he also did not have a spren. I am thus leaning towards believing those callings themselves Skybreakers are not Radiants. They are merely an organisation built by Nale in order to accomplish his sacred mission of slaughtering emerging surgebinder by exploiting every single loop hole in men’s laws.
I have always thought something was off with Helaran…
Regarding Helaran and the “false” Skybreakers…
In the Mr. T interlude, he wonders who trained Shallan in surgebinding. He thought that Jasnah might died too soon and could not have trained her. As a possible alternative he suggests that maybe her brother trained her.
Why would Mr T think that if all Skybreakers are fake? This is not the kind of detail that Mr T gets wrong.
@22 in fact Mr T would “pity the fool” who got that kind of detail wrong. Sorry couldn’t resist child of the 80s.
@17 It was a pain to figure out how to spell as I only have the Alcatraz series on audio. And “fishsticks” isn’t as fun.
@24 – ::gigglesnort::
We know that Hoid has unusual insights into people and situations. He befriended and encouraged a young Shallan in this chapter as well as Kaladin in a WOK chapter and in this book. His role thus far is to guide potential Radiants into fulfilling their mission. With Jasnah, he is there when she returns to the physical world in order to inform her of current events and to act as a guide. The fact that he is said in this chapter to have emptied a vial into his drink is significant. I doubt that it’s a vitamin supplement or a digestive aid. It probably is some metal dust as in Allomancy. Whatever it is, it didn’t cause him to recognize Shallan as a proto-Radiant, such recognition occurred immediately – judging from his surprised reaction at seeing her. It may have given him the power to elevate her brothers’ mental states (emotional allomancy) and make them receptive to her helpful machinations. The presence of that mink, which surprised Shallan, is also significant. It is probably an ‘agent’ of Hoid or a hologram created by Hoid – if not Hoid, himself, in deep disguise.
Didn’t get a lick in last week, and late to the party this week due to RL. //Sigh// At least the discussion last week left me with another good question for Brandon. The list grows. :-)
This is one of my favorite chapters in WoR! It’s somewhat infodumpy without being obnoxious and it’s chalk-full of great plot stuff.
I took the bird to be a bright green (her description), maybe smallish variety of parrot. A parakeet works too.
Re: Hoid allomancing
For a long while I believed this was the point where Hoid ate the lerasium bead. In retrospect, that just doesn’t fit. Forget it. In view of the WoB cited above, we are being led to believe it was bronze. OK, but I think good arguments can be/have been made for brass and maybe even tin. So, why not a combination cocktail? (And I see Alice came up with that suggestion also.)
Shallan mentioning beach sand at age 14 made me wonder where she had seen such. Yeah, maybe her family went “down to shore” on a vacation. And lakes or rivers can have sandy beaches too. But how does that work on Roshar? I don’t think seeing an illustration (of any beach) in a book would have given Shallan sufficient understanding to say “half a beach’s worth of sand.” YMMV. This didn’t throw me out of the story by any means, it just made me curious. And then a servant hands Shallan water in a glass. A glass. Not a cup or some such. They have glass on Roshar? Epiphany. Well, if you have sand, then you can make glass, eh?
Finally…Was Shallan “speaking” her first personal truth (i.e., second Lightweaver ideal) with the lightweaving demo to Hoid? Sure seems like a possibility to me. Do we know for certain that she has said the life before death (etc.) ideal yet or is that later in WoR (if it’s in-book at all)? Or do Lightweavers not have to say the life-before-death bit (I’m under the impression they do). Apologies for poor memory.
@@@@@ 27 Ways
Pattern flat out told Shallan that the first Ideal is the only ideal that Lightweavers have, and after that it’s a matter of truths. But it makes me think that if she said it prior to Surgebinding or even before her mother and the other dude went postal on her, then she must have been quite young indeed.
It makes me wonder 1. If such a small child would even really know what he or she is saying. and 2. If she didn’t recite it quite accidentally while reading the in universe Way of Kings or some such book out loud.
If we ever find out that she (or Lift now that I think about it) didn’t necessarily recite the first ideal with intent, then someone really needs to have a discussion with spren about consent and/or statutory bonding.
Re: first Ideal and Shallan – I don’t know. When I first read this, my daughter was ten, and I’m confident that she would have been perfectly capable of saying it with intent and understanding. Full understanding? probably not, but I doubt anyone could claim that, no matter how old they are.
Like anything else in life, I’m guessing understanding depends more on what the child has been exposed to by that point in his or her life than on age.
I’m not really a good judge on that sort of thing though since I’m not around elementary aged children enough to gauge how well they as a demographic understand some abstract concepts of honor, especially when flowery language is involved.
Still, on a more diabolical note, it would go a long way towards explaining why the Radiants renounced their oaths if it turns out that some spren might treat any sort of reading or recitation of the oaths as a binding Faustian Bargain regardless of the speaker’s mental wherewithal or intent as long as they meet other physical and psychological standards for a Nahel Bond.
EDIT: I can’t see an Honor Spren ever stooping this low, but a High Spren going for the “letter of the law” or a variety we haven’t seen yet? To say nothing of the fact I’m still looking at Pattern at least somewhat edge-ways on this one.
I haven’t posted here before, but I couldn’t help jumping in about the Yolen-style lightweaving. I managed to get ahold of Dragonsteel last year (and paid a late fee of like $10 for returning the darn thing two days late; stupid university libraries), so hopefully I can remember enough to be helpful…
All the magic we see in Dragonsteel is pretty much based on the perception of smaller particles and being able to affect them. So esentially, lightweaving in Dragonsteel is the ability to see and manipulate photons. We see quite a bit of use out of it; for example, a character bending light to become invisible (but still able to percieve the photons outside, preventing her from being blinded), and creating illusions in a very basic way (she copies the reflection pattern of the photons that are bouncing off a door and re-creates that pattern several feet forward in order to make the room appear smaller and hide in the space behind the “door”).
There isn’t all that much on the other types of magic; Since we’ve seen a lot of Hoid in this chapter, though, there is quite a bit about a guy named ‘Topaz’ who is a Jester (Jesk, I think they call it in-world), can use magic, is basically immortal, and is not able to hurt anyone for some reason that isn’t explained. :)
For anyone curious about Wit’s comment “Once I was named after a rock”, I think that his name in Dragonsteel fulfils this.
I do wonder about Hoids surprise of meeting Shallan. Who was he intending to find/meet on Roshar at that time? He tells her he thought he was passing through to somewhere else.
IIRC he comments somewhere (or maybe it was a WoB) that he finds himself where he is needed (time- and planet-wise), so I do wonder, whom he expected to find, or what he expeceted to witness before he saw Shallan.
wcarter @28
Thanks for confirmation about Lightweavers needing to say the first ideal, like all other KR orders. So now the question is whether or not Shallan said it before she had this encounter with Hoid. I’m trying to establish where she is on the path to becoming a full KR.
nebelskind @31
Welcome! Don’t be shy about jumping in here!
I’d heard a rumor that Dragonsteel disappeared from the university library. Hopefully, it’s without basis. Anyway, they were called jesks in the Liar of Partinel, but Hoid’s original name was Midius in that book. Not very rock-like, and a good reason we shouldn’t take any of Brandon’s early works as current Cosmere canon.
Edited for clarity.
@@@@@ 32 I’ll speculate at this time that, perhaps, Hold was on his way to the Shattered Plains. He may not have known he was going to become the king’s Wit, but that seems to be the way he operates. If he is inexplicably drawn to places he is needed, he probably didn’t expect to find a proto Radiant before he got there. He’d already scoped out the Skybreakers (Heleran). I’m guessing he didn’t find any proto Radiants among them, but who knows.
Speaking of Heleran, I don’t think he was a proto Radiant for all the reasons others have stated. Additionally, it seems he would have been much harder for Kaladin to kill if he had even rudimentary Radiant skills.
@@@@@28 and 33 Wouldn’t Shallen have needed to say the First Ideal prior to being able to wield Pattern as a shard blade to kill her mother? Seems like she would have been even further along than the First Ideal in order to do this, but perhaps the ability to wield a spren as a weapon is random. Just because it took Kaladin until he spoke his third ideal doesn’t mean all photo Radiants have to be that far advanced.
Hello all! First timer here but I’ve read all of the Mistborn and Stormlight novels at least twice. In regards to Hoid: he is a god right? Rock saw him come to this world or so he says when Kaladin, Lopen, Rock, Sigzyel and Moash go out drinking. I loved this chapter. Anyone think of why chickens or parrots are only in Shinovar? I don’t know why but in my head I equate Shinovar with China…I did think it odd he was so undone seeing Shallan. Hoid is a mystery to me. ‘That fool Dust’ is what Zial calls him when Kaladin tries to find Wit later. Dust bringer??
Marbelcal @34
Re: Shallan having to say the First Ideal before wielding Pattern as a Shardblade:
My first thought was yes, absolutely. Then I started wondering if we’re just assuming it’s true. So let’s examine what we do know, which isn’t much…
You mentioned Kaladin reaching the Third Ideal before he could wield Syl as a weapon. That’s a check in the “yes” column, and likely the major factor in us thinking the First Ideal must be said before live-spren-shardblading. Unless Kal actually could have done it sooner and didn’t for any of a variety of reasons (he didn’t need the capability yet, it wasn’t who he believed he was–like with healing the slave brand, back-sliding on the path to KR-dom due to anger issues, whatever).
Then we have Dalinar, and it certainly doesn’t appear that he could have done anything like that until he has his chat with Stormfather near the end of WoR. So, another check in the “yes” column, but with the qualifier that Nahel bonding for Bondsmiths might be a bit different than that experienced by other orders.
That leaves Jasnah, Renarin, Lift and Ym. Did I leave any others out? Well, we just don’t know enough about any of their situations to draw an evidence-based conclusion (IIRC).
That leaves the tally at 2 qualified “yeses” and 4 unknowns, which doesn’t convince me, so I’m back-peddling on the yes, absolutely thought. Although I definitely agree that all proto-Radiants might not progress at the same rate.
Wrt. Shallan, no way am I going to say she didn’t say the First Ideal–at age 11 or sooner–before offing mom, but I remain somewhat skeptical. I can’t quite get my head around an 11-year old having the right mind-set to do so, especially since the Davar family doesn’t appear to have started the downhill slide to emotional instability yet. YMMV. However, I can envision Shallan, who had a forward-moving relationship with Pattern at the time, being able to call Pattern as a Shardblade in a time of great need without having said the First Ideal. Again, YMMV.
ETA: Any WoB on the subject I may not have read, or did and forgot?
@35 Barrettswife
Welcome! To answer a few of your questions, no according to Brandon, Hoid is not a god, or even a shard holder, though he knew the people who became Shards beforehand.
As far as Shinovar’s floura and fauna goes, there is a simple answer to that–Shinovar is geographically the furthest country to the west. So it’s the last place the high storms hit and the furthest inland.
When they make landfall they are several times stronger than anything we as a species have ever seen on Earth. They’re not just strong thunderstorms, they literally hurl boulders and blast all of the soil away. But the storms do gradually weaken as they go inland of course, and by the time they get to Shinovar, they’re just mild rain showers.
Shinovar is the only place where there is any soil, so it’s the only place where any sort of “soft” plants or animals without shells could ever hope to exist. Even the trees in Alethkar have outer shells closer to rock than bark, otherwise they would be destroyed.
About Radiants and Blades… I recall reading a WoB where Brandon stated the 3rd oaths was required to achieve a Blade for most orders. He did not say all, but he mentioned it as if the rule would apply to the majority. The question then is, how many truths/oaths had little Shallan swore before she went blank? It could be she made it to level 3 before killing her mother, but regressed and got it back when she acknowledged she was afraid and that she murdered her father. As for an 11 years old having said oaths… Lightweavers say truths and not oaths, so as long as the truth is profound it is accepted. Much more easier for a child to achieve than finding true words and oaths as Kaladin.
Dalinar will never get a Blade. I have long since assume Renarin is a level 2, potentially a level 3, but a very recent one, aka he swore an oath after the Plateau fight, in the five days lap. Ym looked rather new and as far as we know, Lift swore her 2nd oath and not her 3rd in WoR. Jasnah has been surgebinding for 6 years, so the fact she merely is at 3rd oath is an oddity, but it seems to be the case.
@@@@@ Ways
Sounds like you and I have reached the same conclusions. I can swallow an 11-year-old speaking profound truths about herself, especially one as bright as Lil’ Shallan (Ha that’s such a great nickname).
But an 11-year-old from a heretofore sheltered and emotionally stable life speaking the critical First Oath, and understanding it and meaning it on a personal level? Shenanigans. That’s why I’m afraid Pattern may have accepted a mere recitation of the oath by Shallan simply reading it from a book or something as being “close enough.”
It doesn’t matter now since she is definitely in place where she understands it and wants to truly grow as Radiant. But before?
What if all the problems faced by the Davar family were really Pattern’s fault?
What if the real “Truth” is that he as an unfeeling scholar purposefully took the steps he thought needed to create a viable (read:damaged) potential partner for himself at the expense of an entire family’s well-being?
Sorry, I um, I’m not sure why I went to such a dark place with that.
@39: Not all sprens as as discerning as Honorspren… Pattern may have been loose in accepting Shallan’s first oaths… Perhaps he did not require her to fully understand it… From what we know, the proto-knight says the words and the spren then accepts it. It could Pattern does not have a high threshold for oaths/truths… After all, Shallan’s first truths was rather weak (I am afraid)… I do not consider it live altering enough to be a sound oath, but Pattern thought otherwise.
Lightweavers and Truths…
Am I the only one who thinks this method of progressing is lesser that he standard oaths swearing? For instance, Shallan admits she was afraid and Pattern took it as a truth. Being afraid is a rather temporary state of being and whereas it was true at the time, it won’t be true in say 20 years from now. The same goes with her other truths which bear strong significance NOW, but how about when she is 50? So will Shallan swear all of her truths by the time she is 20 and then what? She no more has the incentive to know herself? Could she thus lie to herself for many other things but as long as she remains true to those truths she is fine? Kaladin oaths in comparison are stable throughout time: protecting people will still meant the same thing in a few decades from now…
So when Nohadon says not all sprens are as discerning as Honorspren, he may have meant just that which would also explain why Syl hates Cryptics. They do not demand enough from their knight and in the long run, their truths ideology may go sour.
Hi all!
I stumbled onto this reread about three weeks ago and scrambled to catch up. Apparently I’m not the only one haha. I don’t have much to add WRT this chapter’s but I had a few notes I took while catching up on the reread. I hope I’m not out of line commenting on old topics, but I figured no one reads the old threads! Please forgive the incoming textification.
Is anyone aware of WoB regarding what happens to someone when killed by a Shardblade? It seems their soul is ‘cut,’ but what does that mean precisely?
Food For Thought- Elhokar and his Mysterious Watchers: As discussed in previous chapter threads, Elhokar has problems taking blame for his actions and seeing his behavior as it is seen by others. In a way, his interaction with truth and lies is in the mirror. Where he sees these strange figures. I draw parallels with this and Shallan rendering truth and lies through drawing, where she is able to capture the Cryptic form. Pure speculation but an interesting parallel.
Adolin– Gepeto several threads back mentioned Adolin carrying his mother’s necklace, and it being remarkably close to the Ideal of “Remembering those who are forgotten” from the Edgedancers. Tying to this premise, treating his dead spren blade -a cognitive entity long dead and forgotten- as its own being would be a similar sentiment.
Nergaoul “The Thrill”– There have been comments about the influence of The Thrill waxing and waning in areas, almost as if its location were moving. When I think about this, I also consider the Listener song about being broth while men are meat. I wonder if Nergaoul was happy to feed in its way on the Shattered Plains until the civil wars and general unrest to the west drew it away. While its happy to enjoy the Alethi getting The Thrill, I feel like Nergaoul would be drawn to a conflict involving men on both sides.
Braize– I believe someone brought up that Braize=Damnation. If that is the case, then the Heralds are Worldhoppers! Maybe not in the conventional sense we are familiar with in the Cosmere, but there it is. Between Desolations, the Heralds are sent to Damnation to be tortured while they wait for the next calamity. How does this happen?
Sebarial– Some readers expressed disappointment that Sebarial lost a lot of his economic infrastructure in the flight to Urithiru. I would like to think that some or even a majority of his essential materiel could be transported when parties are sent to convince the other Alethi armies to come to Urithiru. The city is mentioned to have large areas for cultivation, etc. and maaaaybe a certain newly revealed Knight Radiant *cough Shallan cough* could suggest his expertise for getting their fortress up and running. A boy can hope right?
Sunraiser– Last chapter we saw various Shardblades in all their illustrated glory. I don’t recall any other contemporary Blades (dead that is) with glyphs/runes involved. Is this ornamentation known to be a normal occurence? Anyone see any significance?
That’s all I have, I’m caught up! Sorry for the rambling and thank you to everyone for being involved. Big ups to Alice for running this thing solo!
@41: Adolin and his Blade. I have heard it mentioned elsewhere. It is true his insistence on his Blade having a true name, but him not knowing it and not being worthy enough to replace it bears a strange reminiscent to the Edgedancers 2nd oath (presumably the 2nd oath). It makes me feel heartbroken over him finding out the sad truth: his poor Blade is a dead spren whom he tortures each time he summons it, worst it probably hates him.
It is good you mention it.
Gepeto @@@@@ 42 – I’m not sure if Adolin’s actions would necessarily be deemed unworthy for the Edgedancers. I would consider vengeance following through on “Remembering those who are forgotten.” He is getting revenge for Sadeas’ betrayal that led to the death of many men Adolin knew and respected. I would put Edgedancers in the Orders of Radiants that would still take Adolin.
@43: I do not think he killed Sadeas to excerpt revenge… He did it to protect his family, more importantly his father. It was only after Sadeas promised he would never relent and nothing would ever sway his mind that Adolin snapped. Revenge has never crossed his mind (not that we could see in text, unless I missed something), but thoughts towards his family, yes.
However, I agree Edgedancers would most likely be fine with it. Adolin did not commit murder for his personal advancement nor his personal glory: he did it from unselfish reasons which may be what loving Edgedancers are looking for.
@40 Gepeto
Good observation about that old quote. More and more I’m starting to doubt that the spren were at all innocent in the moral failings of the Knights Radiant of the past.
Honor Spren are concerned with “what’s right” not the law, but “right” according to whom? By the flip side of the coin High Spren are concern with the law above all else, but what if the law is something truly heinous? Cryptics are interesting in truths and lies more than any sort of code of morality…
These creatures are all living concepts of nature. Their concerns align more with what they are made of than any universal code of ethics. Makes you wonder just how much they can really be trusted.
Bit late on this subject, but the question of the first Oath and saying it/meaning it: I’ve always found it odd that the Knight Radiant Orders all have this first oath that they must swear…yet we only saw it happen the one time with Kaladin, and comparing it to Oaths 2 and 3, it held no real significance when he actually swore it. Kaladin thought more deeply on the first Oath right before he swore his third, even. This makes me think that the first Oath is mostly a formality to the spren (probably part of what was imposed on them) – the act of simply saying it doesn’t seem nearly as important as the later steps each specific spren type demands, which have much more self-discovery involved (or at least that’s what we’ve seen so far).
I would wonder if the first Oath even needs to be said, but I see no real reason why to question that…for all the proto Radiants we’ve seen, it’d be fairly easy for them to find the first Oath (Lift is the one I’d wonder about it for the most, and the answer there is clear – Wyndle might have remembered that at the very least she needed to say that, if it’s so important in starting the whole process).
So yeah, I think li’l Shallan could just say the words and be fine. True understanding is probably something that just needs to come with time.
Or heck. Maybe it really is just that one oath for each KR order: their 4 subsequent oaths/truths/levels are just how each spren order measures the human’s ability to realize that first oath (based on how they all seem to include self-reflection and discovery, at least so far).
“So yeah, I think li’l Shallan could just say the words and be fine. True understanding is probably something that just needs to come with time.”
True understanding of the first Ideal would take a lifetime and then some. I would hope that a mindless recitation of the words with no consideration of their meaning would be insufficient, but a true understanding would be impossible. It seems most reasonable to expect that any would-be Radiants would need at least a basic comprehension of what they were saying and an intent to pursue that basic meaning, but not that they fully understand the nuances and multiple applications of the deeper principles inherent in it. I’ve been kicking around this planet for somewhere in the vicinity of a half-century, and I certainly wouldn’t claim full understanding of the deeper meanings.
Also, huge welcome to the new folks! I love it when people de-lurk, or when they catch up after a mad scramble. :) We’re all better for more input: ideas, questions, angles we haven’t considered yet… Glad you’re here!
Funny how the Middlefest chapter was on the Read last July 4 (by me) and the Reread July 4 this year. Fitting.
@Wetlandernw: I get the feeling just saying the words would be enough for the first Oath myself, but admittedly that’s off the very sketchy sample size of just Kaladin’s example. The first Oath seems to gate the others, but it in itself is not transformative (or didn’t appear to be so), so it doesn’t feel like when it first happens there does need to be anything significant behind it. That’s my two cents on it anyways. Obviously Kaladin spoils us a bit in that his levels are demarcated so…blatantly, which could be misleading me. But it’s weird (to me) to think of li’l Shallan and Lift saying the first Oath as more than a weird formality (especially when the Lightweavers don’t even have Oaths afterward, which reeks of formality considering what we’ve been taught about Ishar imposing order of the KRs – all the spren start their humans from the same place even if they’re radically different because it helps tie extremely disparate groups apart).
@Many
It seems likely that Hoid has achieved at least the First Heightening. That should give him the ability to detect her investure (since Shallan needed to be invested to perform the lightweaving). However, if he has achieved the Seventh Heightening he might be able to know which surges she has access to.
We know Hoid has been to Nalthis, so maybe he can spot proto-radiants in the same way awakeners can sense auras — because of breath. I assumed that was why Zahel could see Syl. Sort of an investiture geiger counter?
Edit: haha @50 beat me to it!
@51
It amuses me that we posted roughly the same idea within two minutes of each other.
@@@@@ 47, 49
I think perhaps the difference in “levels” between Windrunner and Lightweaver regarding the Oaths could be the origin of the spren. Cryptics come from Cultivation and Honorspren are from… Honor. There seems to be more rigidity to the Oaths when the spren come from Honor. The antipathy we see between Orders in the Epigraphs may have to do with how much easier it is for those in the Cultivation fold to get around certain restrictions that may hold back those from Honor.
Re: Hoid’s Heightening
We learn from a Kaladin chapter Hoid has Perfect Pitch, so he is at least of the Second Heightening.
@53: Oh definitely, although both types seem to still be pretty demanding in what their oath/truth levels demand after the first (well, either that or we just have really difficult to teach proto Radiants >.> ).
I feel silly I never considered the First Heightening, because as @54 mentions Hoid comments on what is very likely the Second Heightening (he mentions perfect pitch in the Fleet story chapter, so that’ll be down the line in Part 4). Another good reason for a Warbreaker reread…
For those that argues that Shallan was too young and sheltered to have said the first oath with understanding and meaning it, isn’t it possible that Pattern had interacted with her before long enough to educate her in these matters?
Shallan seems to be a quick learner so I believe that she might have had enough understanding with the help of Pattern.
@56 Kaboom
Yes it is possible. But I find the idea that Pattern drafting her as a little girl reprehensible. Hence my earlier fear that Pattern chose her while she was still an ordinary girl, then orchestrated the events that make her suitable for the Nahel Bond.
Syl found an already brave and good-hearted Kaladin who wanted to be a solider who protects people. So she gave him the power to do so. That’s great.
But if Shallan only became the type of person she is because Pattern first gave her the power of her surges/told her about first oath thereby drafting her as a child, (major if), then I would argue that Odium was only the second evil thing to touch that Davar family’s lives.
Because that would mean that Pattern was the one set into motion the events that leave her parents dead at Shallan’s own hands, her brothers mentally, emotionally and in one case physically crippled, and her virtually catatonic.
@56 /57:
Kaladin could use his surge-powers before he spoke the first oath, though Stormlight did work better afterwards. So I think Kaboom made a good suggestion: Pattern was drawn to Shallan due to unknown reasons (which left her broken or at least a good target for Cryptic) and afterwards Pattern helped her understand and say the words, as Syl did with Kaladin IIRC.
@58
Yeah that’s around the lines that I was thinking, except I don’t think Shallan was broken. As I have mentioned previously I think that in the case of children, they don’t need to be broken to bond a spren as their minds are more malleable than adult minds. But the rest fits.
With this way of thinking, Pattern’s actions are not so bad. The consequences of the bond (ie Shallan killing her mother etc.) were completely unpredictable for Pattern. He could not have known that her mother would want to kill her.
All discussion aside, just where is the chapter icon for this chapter? Please produce it somehow!
I know I’m a couple years late here (gearing up for Oathbringer!), but I read the end of this chapter as also potentially hinting that Hoid is burning pewter in addition to bronze and whatever else.
To me, this description hits close to the “unconscious grace” (or some similar phrasing) that is regularly attributed to someone burning pewter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯